The former secretary of the Department of Homeland Security says the man who is accused of trying to set off a bomb on an airplane on Christmas Day in Detroit should not have the protection of the U.S. Constitution.
Said Ridge, in a television interview on CNN’s “Larry King Live:”
I take a look at this individual who has been charged criminally, does that mean he gets his Miranda warnings? The only information we get is if he volunteers it? He’s not a citizen of this country. He’s a terrorist, and I don’t think he deserves the full range of protections of our criminal justice system embodied in the Constitution of the United States.
Isn’t this the same mentality that gave us torture? And Guantanamo Bay?
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So what he’s saying is that constitutional protections shouldn’t apply to foreigners. Great. That would decimate the tourist economies of the east and west coasts, and several airlines, not to mention the safety of American tourists abroad. Fortunately, Tom Ridge cannot make this determination unilaterally.
No, not foreigners. Carlo Puzzi comes to America on a Visa and steals apples from Stop & Shop. Yes. he deserves full protection under the US Constitution. However, let’s compare apples to explosives. This is an enemy combative. He came here to kill Americans from a place where others like him are being trained to kill me, you and even poor old Carlo. He has information that may save the life of my brother as he flies back from Florida next week. Don’t get stuck in theory land. Theory is fine in school. The real world is a nasty, messy, evil place where people with little regard for human life, let alone human rights, are trying to kill us. These are tough problems that require tough solutions. Let’s not get all tangled up in theory.
I’m not stuck in theory land. Theory Land means nothing to me. I’m saying that this guy deserves the same protections as any one else, because when we start parsing their citizenship, we end up with torture. Or, at least, that’s what’s happened most recently.
So Americans are still entitled to constitutional protections?
What about this American?
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/12/28
Saw this. When I was a teenager, our house was ruled by “What will the neighbors think,” to the point that it was pretty obnoxious. But in this case and others, extending constitutional protection makes sense if for no other reason (and there are plenty of reasons) than what the neighbors think. Guantanamo Bay is a smear on our national soul. Waterboarding is, too. We can’t keep doing this. It’s wrong and there’s no justification for it, no matter how hard we try.
“What will the neighbors think?” My mother’s favorite expression.
She was gobsmacked when one day I replied, “I don’t care what the neighbors think.”
I said the same thing and then I was smacked right in the gob.
I was forever frustrated as a teen when my father would use “what will the neighbors think” one minute and in the next he would say that we are supposed to be different, to stand out, as Christians. He used whichever one suited what he was forbidding at the time.
I don’t think my neighbors were paying nearly as close attention to us as my mother believed.
“I don’t think my neighbors were paying nearly as close attention to us as my mother believed.”
Right, they were too busy worrying about what your mother thought!
And I sense she was quick to tell them, too. Ah, small-town America…
It didn’t surprise me, but I do appreciate his delivering me a blog entry like that.
By denying The Undie Bomber the constitutional protections created by our democratic order, employing the same processes and policies of the tyrannies and totalitarian regimes we allege threaten our security, we lose.
They win.
What is Tom Ridge so scared of?
Bad people? Oh, wait. Sorry. That was the answer to something else. It’s that kind of attitude (Ridge’s, and I am stealing the “Undie Bomber,” thanks) that contributed to the mess we’re in now.
Syed Fahad Hashmi can tell you about the dark heart of America. ….
Hashmi, who if convicted [of sending socks and ponchos to Al Qaeda] could face up to 70 years in prison, has been held in solitary confinement for more than 2½ years. Special administrative measures, known as SAMs, have been imposed by the attorney general to prevent or severely restrict communication with other prisoners, attorneys, family, the media and people outside the jail. He also is denied access to the news and other reading material. Hashmi is not allowed to attend group prayer. He is subject to 24-hour electronic monitoring and 23-hour lockdown. He must shower and go to the bathroom on camera. He can write one letter a week to a single member of his family, but he cannot use more than three pieces of paper. He has no access to fresh air and must take his one hour of daily recreation in a cage. His “proclivity for violence” is cited as the reason for these measures although he has never been charged or convicted with committing an act of violence.
One Day We’ll All Be Terrorists by Chris Hedges.
….while Scott Roeder gets belly rubs and huggles from Arkansas….
So bringing dangerous materials onto a plane destined for the US becomes a special case outside of constitutional law? Or a Muslim bringing dangerous materials onto a plane destined for the US becomes a special case? Or what?
Now you got it…
Well, which is it? This guy is a Nigerian, not an Arab. How do you identify an airline passenger’s religious preference?
I’d start looking out for hillbilly fundamentalists. They’re an odd breed and you never ever know when they’re going to turn on you like a snake.
True enough since they change their churches more often than their underwear….
Plus they are easy to “Profile,” as they’re the ones missing teeth. Oh wait. I forgot about people from Stafford, CT.
Dangerous waters there, Mario….
You ask his father.
You ask the British Government who revoked his Visa.
If he screams out “Allah is great’” you don’t have to ask.
Patently not true. I can scream that and it hardly makes me a Muslim.
Sharon–There are Muslims in Nigeria. And there are non-Muslims in Nigeria.
“There are Muslims in Nigeria. And there are non-Muslims in Nigeria.”
Precisely my point!
So, Mario, how do we decide who is allowed onto planes?
This is the world that we live in…
http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php
Tom Ridge is correct….up until the suspect was Mirandized. He should have been treated as an enemy combatant and prisoner of war, but now it is too late.
In fact, since he was caught in the act, in what was an act of war, he should have executed immediately.
To quote the Duke, “Out here, due process is a bullet.”
“In fact, since he was caught in the act, in what was an act of war, he should have executed immediately. ”
And put the final nail in the coffin of airline travel.
I doubt that very much. Might change family/vacation travel, but not business.
An awful lot of people across the nation favor direct action. Admittedly they are mostly conservatives, but that’s okay.
Even if it did…is air travel necessary? It can’t support itself. Travelers really do not want to pay the full cost. Airlines scrape by on the margins. Maybe it is time to pull the plug on a dying industry.
But look, Humphrey…..
We got to murder a bunch of children the other day.
That should satiate the bloodlust ay least little….hmmmm?
Hey, Humphrey! What have you against air travel?
I have the choice of driving two days to see my grandchildren, or taking a two-hour flight. Guess which I choose?
Plus, you get a bag’o peanuts to boot!
“I have the choice of driving two days to see my grandchildren, or taking a two-hour flight. Guess which I choose?”
If I have to get to the airport 3 hours in advance of the flight, which is what I heard this morning, that tips the scales to Amtrak for me. I’d rather spend two relaxing days on the train than 12 hours of terror at the airport and in a plane.
I’m flying on Monday. I wouldn’t consider driving the hours as I’m not in the mood for a road trip.
Was at BWI about three hours before our flight. That was OK because it involved looking for a gas station and filling up the tank; dropping off the rental car; taking the shuttle to the terminal; checking in our luggage; going through security, and getting a bite to eat.
It all worked out very well.
I’m not loving the idea of sitting in the airport, though. There are only so many books I can carry and I can never ever ever figure out how to buy Wifi.
Personally I find it unpleasant and uncomfortable, mainly because I am well-over six feet tall and not skinny.
I also detest the way they treat fat people.
Economically though it simply cannot support itself. Look at the histories of the airlines, the number of bankruptcies, the costs that municipalities pay for airports and the support.
Passengers simply won’t pay full cost.
The industry is heavily subsidized with tax dollars, some apparent and some not-so-apparent.
I understand time costs of travel…my rule of thumb is that if I can get there with 12 hours of driving I will drive.
And my grandchildren are VERY NEAR me. Right now at least.
What’s that old joke? How do you loose one million dollars? Buy Airline Stocks!
My grandchildren are two time zones away. I’ll fly.
“my rule of thumb is that if I can get there with 12 hours of driving I will drive. ”
Mine has been 6 – 8, but I may have to expand that time-window.
I like flying, I like what it feels like and I like take-off and landing. I don’t like the cabin-air, the tight quarters, the guy in front of me who slams his seat back so I can’t move, the waiting, the frazzled parents who have to carry all their kids’ paraphernalia on to the plane, the waiting, the usually REALLY stupid movies, the oh-so-much-more-than-a-pat-down I got in the Frankfurt (not KY) airport last year, and oh yeah, the waiting. I guess I need my own private jet for visiting my friends in southern CA or to go to Australia next year (maybe).
May I borrow said jet? Because my Monday flight is at 6 a.m. and I don’t see myself getting to the airport at 3.
Why in tarnation did you choose a 6 am flight?
You can schedule yourself to get to BDL at 4, with no problem. Are you still living at the shore?
I did not book the flight. I am only ballast. And yes, I’m roughly an hour-plus from the airport.
NEVER let anyone else book your flights, even your spouse, without knowing, and agreeing to, the specifics.
Preferably in writing.
Hey! I have a relationship grounded in Trust! And Laziness on My Part! And I cleave to it.
“Hey! I have a relationship grounded in Trust! And Laziness on My Part! And I cleave to it.”
And that’s why you find yourself booked on a 6 a.m. flight.
Where to, pray tell?
Florida. God’s Waiting Room. It’s comforting to go where you can have your dinner done by 5 and move on to the cheap movies.
At least you’re going at the right time of year.
My wife did her year’s internship in Miami and her stipend was a glorious $13,000 a year. That was about 12 years ago.
I took a vacation in England and flew back to Miami, at the same time her internship was ending. It was towards the end of June. England was still coolish, but Miami was BEASTLY hot.
She had to vacate her apartment, and I had to pack, for the movers. She had chosen a seedy cheap motel for those last few days. She had the car; mine was in Birmingham.
No restaurant within about ten blocks, so I had to hike in the blazing sun to get meals. I was suffering from both jet lag and a cold, and she hadn’t packed anything. It was, to put it mildly, a stressful time.
My advice to anyone contemplating going for a doctoral degree is: “Do your spouse a favor. Get a divorce first.”
I have decided, then, not to get that doctorate as I am fond of Mr. DJ. I kid — not about being fond, but I never contemplated getting a doctorate.
I took the 6am flight to Dallas from BDL a few times, but I’m over an hour from the airport. I stayed the night before at an adequate little hotel just a few blocks away. They kept my car in their lot, gave me coffee, drove me to the airport, and picked me up when I came back. I highly recommend it.
We are currently negotiating this.
I love flying. That feeling of man over nature as we take off is wonderful. “Yep, it’s weight at take-off is about 400 tons, but thanks to those flimsy aluminum wings, this baby will be up in the thin air in no time!” I’ve had my fill on emergency landings, thank you, but It is the way to travel!
I agree. See you up at Bradley, Mario!
I agree that it’s uncomfortable and unsustainable. I’m heavy and my husband is very tall. But it would have been awfully hard to get to Hawaii without it! (I won a trip) So I vote for flying.
Wait a second. You buried the lede. You’re going to Hawaii? You won a trip!!!??
Nah, this was a couple of years ago. We had two very young children and we were broke. Free airfare and hotel so we went and ate lots of McDonald’s. It did wonders for us during that period of a marriage when the kids are so little they can really get in the way of your relationship!
Great timing for a free trip!
Fat people? Nay. For Southwest Airlines, it’s COS–Customer of Size.
And for the uninitiated: http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_qa.html
“I’d start looking out for hillbilly fundamentalists.”
That means people like Timothy McVey won’t be allowed on planes.
“I like flying, [...] I guess I need my own private jet for visiting my friends in southern CA or to go to Australia next year (maybe).”
I’d still be happy to get on a British Airways or Quantas flight, but no more continental US or US airline air travel for me.
I don’t live near family and many of my oldest friends are far away, too. I will continue to fly and continue to marvel at how much travel has changed.
What I don’t get is how someone can commit an act of war. He’s one guy, trained by a couple of other guys. They aren’t affiliated with a government. If I commit a crime but declare that it’s because I’m at war with you do my rights get tossed as well?
I think there is a difference between terrorism and war and that this is how we landed all over the daggone Middle East losing our young men and women left and right.
Good point. If I try to do something hateful to hurt a lot of people and I insist I’m not acting alone, am I then a terrorist?
You are if your name is Gavrilo Princip.
from Wiki: War is a state or period of armed hostility between two or more separate entities, aimed at reorganising a subjectively designed, geo-politically desired result. In 2003, Nobel Laureate Richard E. Smalley identified war as the sixth (of ten) biggest problems facing humanity for the next fifty years. In his book On War, Prussian military theoretician Carl Von Clausewitz calls war the “continuation of political intercourse, carried on with other means.”[1] War is an interaction in which two or more opposing forces have a “struggle of wills”.[2] The term is also used as a metaphor for non-military conflict, such as in the example of Class war.
War is not necessarily considered to be the same as occupation, murder, or genocide because of the reciprocal nature of the violent struggle, and the organized nature of the units involved.[3]
A civil war is a war between factions of citizens of one country (such as in the English Civil War), or else a dispute between two nations that were created out of one formerly-united country. A proxy war is a war that results when two powers use third parties as substitutes for fighting each other directly.
War is also a cultural entity, and its practice is not linked to any single type of political organization or society. Rather, as discussed by John Keegan in his History Of Warfare, war is a universal phenomenon whose form and scope is defined by the society that wages it.[4] The conduct of war extends along a continuum, from the almost universal tribal warfare that began well before recorded human history, to wars between city states, nations, or empires.
Note the very first sentence – ‘entities’ not ‘nations’.
Why insist on, or even consider, providing rights to individuals who came into the USA with sole purpose of attacking the USA and its citizens? It is one thing to grant rights and protections to immigrants whether their immigration was lawful or not, since they are at least seeking to join the nation.
Even if you are acting alone, you are still a terrorist. A terrorist does not require a group.
The Unabomber was a terrorist…he also was an American citizen and could be assumed to have protection under the law.
Vegas, we are far from “losing our young men and women left and right.” We lost over 58,000 in Viet Nam compared to 5300 in the “War on Terror”, 36,00o in Korea, and 405,000 in WWII.
The war on terror has been clean and surgical compared to other wars. The difference is that we now really seem to care about each life…I’m not convinced that was true.
I don’t think war is ever clean or surgical, either compared to other wars or standing alone. And I think the country as a whole cared about each life, though the priorities were different, and the opportunities to visit various media outlets and get various takes on the conflicts was limited to the extreme. And I think any one deserves the rights of an American if they’re on our soul. I think that’s what makes this country America.
What I meant was that I think there is a difference between acts of war and acts of terrorism. The undie-bomber was an example of terrorism (attempted) but not war, IMO, so he is not bound by military laws but civil.
An individual can be a terrorist but can he commit an act of war as an individual? I’m not sure and I think it’s dangerous to think so because that puts every criminal at risk for being treated as an enemy combatant.
I wasn’t around for Vietnam but the numbers there do not diminish the numbers here. It’s atrocious.
Hillbilly fundamentalists probably don’t change underwear very often.
That is hateful and mean and probably true. I’ve just taken a quick poll of my own family and yes, that is probably true.
“I love flying.”
I used to love flying. Still do. But from now on I’m not getting into a commercial US plane unless a blood relative is at the controls.
I hope that “blood relative at the controls” has the proper licensure and experience.
How to say this with love? If there are any of my relatives reading this, I love you, right: But I would no more get into a plane flown by one of my blood-kin than I would paint my ass purple and run through the town square shouting “Nixon.”
“than I would paint my ass purple and run through the town square shouting “Nixon.””
This seems to be a recurring theme…… Do you want to talk about it?
I do want to talk about it, Cynical, but I should probably check with my lawyer first. Leftover?
…and why “Nixon”?
Take it from the badly bent corner of the room…..
…seek help….I know some people…..
So you don’t want me to talk about it, out loud? Probably a good call.
Surprised! The roads are absolutely subsidized, right up to your driveway. And most of them are toll-free.
I have no beef about subsidizing airports. As for airlines, they already are subsidized through carrying mail and other stuff. Plus, there’s those annoying security fees and taxes.
“Guantanamo Bay is a smear on our national soul.”
A smear?
It’s not even a pee-pee stain, compared to, say, any other Country on this Planet.
Is this a standard you are comfortable with, Mario? We’re better than some of those others? Not me.
Never. We should always strive to be the best, however when we do what’s necessary for National Security, under close control and scrutiny by Congress, I am satisfied, to a point. Then we get into an area of opinion, That’s where I get uncomfortable. My point still is that we as Americans can be proud that we are a fair and righteous lot. Certainly better then the Swiss, Japanese, Germans, Russians, Chinese…
I think the Swiss, Japanese, etc., might have a different take on that.
I don’t think that finding loopholes in the law so that we can TORTURE people is something we can do and still feel proud that we are better than other countries. I’m a better parent than the ones who abuse or neglect their children but that does not make me feel good about myself if I lose my temper and yell at the kids.
There are certainly different ideas about what is *necessary* for National security.
I don’t agree. I think if we’re going to hold the light for Truth and Beauty, we need to extend due process to everyone, and we need to not-torture. I’m not comparing this country to others, just to our own ideals.
“America. Not as bad as Soviet Russia.”
What a great epitaph.