(Well, we kind of were…)
The Chambersburg Borough Council (in Penn.) decided to remove a nativity scene from a public site after an atheist group asked for equal time and space for a display promoting their beliefs.
The atheists’ display was to have included a sign with “a picture of a sun rising over the words ‘Celebrating Solstice. Honoring Atheist War Veterans.’ The sun would have had an italicized ‘A’ in the middle.”
I am not terribly comfortable with religious displays, myself. Even if I am a Christian — or I’m trying to be one — displays too often exclude others, and I’m not sure Jesus would be comfortable with that, making people feel unwelcome. I can go all Christmas without seeing a manger scene, but I realize this is not the case for many people. Heathens? Christians? In-betweens? Do you get some comfort from displays, religious or non?
And thanks, Right Wing Watch, for the link.
Dating Jesus 
Religious displays on public property tend to show government preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose, which is in opposition to the concept of separation of church and state.
The Supreme Court has allowed religious displays, or the use of religious symbols in displays, that can be directly tied to secular purpose. Like icons of The Ten Commandments, which can be directly tied to the Judeo-Christian origins of our secular law.
Religious organizations have their own property, the properties of their congregation and the properties of sympathetic businesses to display icons of their belief. They have no business, or right, to insist public property display their icons. In fact, if Christians truly subscribed to the concept of religious freedom which gives all people the right to express their beliefs openly without fear of discrimination, public property would be the last place they would choose for their displays.
The displays don’t offend me, unless they are being used to promote the establishment of Christianity as our national religion. Christmas is not a secular holiday, no matter what WalMart says. It is an inherently religious holiday, just like Passover and Ramadan. The icons of any religion have no place on public property unless they can be tied to a secular purpose.
I am made vaguely uncomfortable by them, mostly because I think they make others uncomfortable and it’s not that important to me to have a papier-mache Jesus out in the cold and snow. Without getting too corny about this, I always figure religion lives inside, not in public displays.
I apparently have a fondness for the nativity scenes. When I was a toddler living in Ohio, whenever we’d go out around Christmas I’d ask if we could see the “baby tretch”. That was the baby stretching (hands were up so I suppose I figured he was stretching) in the nativitiy scene. Now, I enjoy driving by the nativity scene in town (on private property, I believe) and looking for baby Jesus who doesn’t appear until Christmas day. I just like it; it’s a comfort in some odd way I suppose. It’s a big holiday for so many people, I don’t see the harm in it. I don’t see the harm in other religious displays, either. However, this request by the atheist group sounds more like a protest against the Christian display. i.e. Does their sign need to be up at Christmas? The sign is more exclusive than the nativity is. I don’t think the nativity scene leaves anyone out. It’s a celebration of someone who is central to our religion. Anyone can acknowledge that whether they believe he was the son of God or not. (Heck, I’m a Christian and I’m on the fence about that.) There are other things that truly leave people out like only offering communion wafers to some and not others.
One more thing, I’m with leftover on the point that these displays don’t need to be on public property. However, you end up in a very gray area since we have government officials living on public property. Can the President display/decorate the White House at Christmas? Can the Governor decorate the Governor’s mansion with what ever fits his/her religious beliefs? Some public displays seem reasonable.
You know, that’s an interesting point about the residences of public officials.
My first reaction would be “no,” public officials being held to different standards than regular folk, but I can see a controversy. There’s probably some precedent for it somewhere.
The action of the atheist group was definitely in response to the Christian display. The New Atheism, militant atheism, is becoming just as much a “religion” as any other faith based organization. That bothers me more than seeing Christians display icons of their faith, (on private property).
What the atheists should have done is what a group of us did up north about ten years ago. We hired a lawyer to write a brief and approached the local government and told them if they didn’t bring their display up to standards accepted by established jurisprudence we would sue, tie up the government budget for years and potentially devastate their budget for years into the future, causing them to call for tax increases.
We even helped them take it down.
I still maintain those homes are public, and so they’re not there for the residents, per se. What display did you help take down?
What, DJ? Didn’t your church even have a copy of Sallman’s head of Christ?
As for residences of government officials, probably the public areas can be decorated with greenery, balls, lights, etc. The private areas can be decorated as the president or governor pleases, at their own expense.
Nuttin’. Not so much as a teeny-tiny cross. And nothing for Christmas or for Easter, either. If Jesus didn’t celebrate those holidays, well…yeah, I know. It’s kind of a goofy thing to focus on but it scarred me from every erecting a manger scene. Actually, I somehow came by a manger scene years ago and I put it up because one son asked for it. So I can add “fundamentalist” to the list of things I’m crappy at.
But Jesus celebrated Hannukah and the other Jewish holidays!
Uh-oh…
But, but…these holidays came after his death to celebrate him. Martin Luther King didn’t celebrate Martin Luther King Day because it didn’t exist yet. I’m just wondering why the fundamentalists didn’t see it that way. As Jay mentioned, Jesus did celebrate Jewish holidays like Passover. Was that something that fundamentalists acknowledged?
(Sorry if you already explained this before. I can’t remember.)
I don’t think I’ve explained it before, but i have to caution you against looking for logic here. I’m not sure there is any.
It was a manger scene with a rather large statue of Jesus. Very nice stuff donated for the event by a local church. Very nice stuff, really. Just completely inappropriate on public property.
They actually ended up having a huge community event with volunteers and firefighters helping them light the giant Colorado Blue Spruce on the front lawn of the courthouse.
Everybody brought a string of lights and in the end it looked spectacular.
Lights on trees are wonderful. Last night ,Mr. DJ and I drove through a festival of lights in the town next to ours and it was just incredibly beautiful. Lots of elves. I assume they were undeclared, religion-wise.
I would say that the home of the governor or president is still public property, and so any religious display must be open to all religions and no religions. I realize this may run counter to the residents of the house and their beliefs, but hey! They’re living free-of-charge for the stretch of their tenure and they don’t get to make the rules like that in a house that’s not really their house.
DJ wouldn’t that infringe on the person rights of the residents to express there own religious beliefs? I wonder how that works, legally.
Good question. I liked the idea of the residents of the governors’ or presidents’ mansions being able to decorate their own, off-limits living spaces as they see fit, but at their own expense. But I pay the rent on my governor’s and president’s house, just a tinge, and I say slap up some non-secular lights and be done with it.
Some will complain about the non-secular lights using extra electricity at tax-payer expense. I wonder where you draw the line.
I just bought borderline religious lights (they’re bright, is all) to decorate some trees out back. They’ll look beautiful, I think.
I love lights and enjoy seeing them all through the winter when we head to VT ski country. I think it looks warm and inviting.
One year I hung lights off our back deck and liked them so much I left them up until we sold the house. I believe we were going on 10 years when I finally wound them up.
You just reminded me to turn on the ones in my living room. A friend gave me a branch from his “Harry Lauder’s Walking Stick” tree, all curly and twisty, and I have a small string of lights on it — they’ve been off all summer and now they’ll probably be on all winter.
And I figured out how to put battery-powered lights around the inside edge of my windshield too, so those’ll get cranked up pretty soon.
Oh how cool! In your car?
“Oh how cool! In your car?”
Windshield? Yes.
That’s awesome. Where do I get mine?
Battery powered lights? I think I got mine at a small hardware store.
I’ve got to get out more. Is that legal, to decorate the inside of your car like that? I’m not asking to be snarky.
“Is that legal, to decorate the inside of your car like that?”
Good question. I’ve wondered that myself. Since the lights are at the very edge of the windshield, they’re certainly no more distracting than a speedometer or a GPS screen.
Well, you won’t hear from me. I think it’s an awesome idea. It would make my long, dreary commute somewhat festive!
THANK YOU. You reminded me that I forgot to take down some lights on our deck. I put them up for a 4th of July party and they may not be winter-proof!
Full-service blog. Now go rake your yard, too. (Or come rake mine. I have just moved the compost pile for the second time. It’s a rental and the owner may not even want a compost pile, but I can’t bring myself to not have one and I’m trying to put it where he can just ignore it if he wants, once we move out.)
I haven’t found anything definitive describing any regulations on decorations inside or outside the homes of government officials. Back in the mid-80’s a controversy erupted when a creche was planned for outside but the plan was dropped.
There is, however an White House Creche on display in the East Room. A gift, it’s been on display since 1967.
Looks beautiful.
I just drove by my town’s green and there’s a manger scene. I found that…odd. But I don’t know if any one ever complained. I’m new here.
I imagine my own discomfort with religious displays comes from my own religion, where religious displays were never, ever acceptable. I don’t cling to the religion but that works for me. Wearing crosses, etc., to me is not the point. But I do like the idea of a toddler-Jac asking to see baby tretch.
Ah, my wife graduated from Wilson College in Chambersburg.
Religious displays should not be on public property. Most towns have churches downtown, and the churches can do that on their front lawns. As for the shopping malls, they’re privately owned.
Uh, the Solstice is a religious holiday to a lot of folks. Sort of weird that the Athiests are taking it over. And it should be on public property.
“the Solstice is a religious holiday to a lot of folks…”
Say more about that please. I know that it’s an old old celebration, that it was more of a realization that now the days start getting longer and isn’t that comforting, and those celebrations got rolled into the Christian marking of Christ’s birth (which probably may or may not have happened in the other half of the year, right?) so as to pull Solstice-celebrants into that tent, no?
Excellent question. Any one know?
that should have read “shouldnn’t be on public property.”
I run with a weird crowd, granted, but Solstice is one of the most sacred times of the year for them (as is Midsummer.) Its a long dark scary night but then the sungod/goddess starts coming back. So its a symbol of prosperity, and hope. All that mistletoe is very Heathen, of course.
“I run with a weird crowd, granted, but Solstice is one of the most sacred times of the year for them (as is Midsummer.) ”
Okay. Got that. But is it a worshipful ceremony? Are they serious about the sunGOD/GODDESS? Or is it more an acknowledgement/a celebration of a natural occurrence?
Which? Both of them?
Yes, they are serious. I find this so interesting – that majority religion people find it so ODD that people could worship nature or gods/goddesses (I guess especially if they are white people – if they were First Nations folk, would that question be asked?)
So yes, very serious, including taking days off from work for the holy days they celebrate. And, many many pagans and heathens (technically two different things I guess- some on both sides get edgy being referred to as the other) get discriminated for their religious beliefs. Just the hell that had to be gone through to get Wicca recognized for military headstones! Because they are all sacrificing babies and drinking goat’s blood.
So that’s where all the babies have gone off to….
“I find this so interesting – that majority religion people find it so ODD that people could worship nature or gods/goddesses …”
Well, whatcha got here is a NON-religious person who finds the whole idea of worship to be odd — I’m asking questions in hopes of having a better idea about people who see things differently from me.
If you scratch too far back in most cultures, I think a lot of people worshipped or communed or whatever you want to call it with nature and/or gods and goddesses. Maybe worship (I’m speaking only for myself, Cynical) is similar to what a really good time spent outdoors would be for you. Actually, I probably worship best outdoors. Or I get more out of that contemplative time when I’m outside with no roof over my head.
Well DJ I came from exactly the same religious background that you did with the same attitude towards Christmas, however, the last incarnation of that particular sect that I was associated with went all “liberal” and not only deign to sing Christmas hymns but actually had a Christmas tree in the foyer. Of course they were shunned by other fundamentalist of that sect.
Isn’t that funny? That by putting up a Christmas tree (not found in the Bible, those heathens) and singing hymns others of their sect shunned them. That is a huge theological issue to get one’s baptismal gown in a twist over, yes? Lord.
“those celebrations got rolled into the Christian marking of Christ’s birth (which probably may or may not have happened in the other half of the year, right?) so as to pull Solstice-celebrants into that tent, no?”
I thought it was the other way around. Solstice celebrations predate Christmas, and Jesus was surely not born in December, when shepherds would not be out in the fields keeping watch over their flocks by night. Christmas became a winter solstice holiday in order to supplant and suppress the older celebrations.
And while we’re on the subject, I guess the Puritans were not Christians, by glennbeckian standards, since they did not observe Christmas at all?
“I thought it was the other way around. Solstice celebrations predate Christmas…”
Right, and the celebrations were pulled in to the Christian customs and calendar by the church leaders in order to pull in those who hadn’t been previously involved in Christianity.
Oooh! Who’s going to tell Mr. Beck that? This could get ugly. And I’d heard the same thing, that Christmas was arranged to take everyone’s minds off the pre-Christian religions (that were, let’s face it, a lot more fun). (I’m only going by what I read. I mean this in no way to be disrespectful. But it IS kind of funny, the timing of the holiday.)
Susan, it was a generalized observation, because it is so common. You weren’t raised in a majority religion?
Anyway, they have some interesting stories which sound like testimony to me (including a guy who saved a drowning woman, and while doing so, he asked the God of the Ocean to hold back the tide, and apparently it happened (for a bit) it was a miracle that he got her out.- this was in a news paper.
Very cool!
“You weren’t raised in a majority religion?”
Raised…. hmm. Although my mother’s family was historically-connected to a Methodist church where I attended Sunday school and sang, briefly, in the little kids’ choir, there was no real family involvement — my grandmother attended services occasionally and I went with her a couple of times, but my mother didn’t; there were no religious family traditions, and it wasn’t long before I peeled away.
And you’ve been healthy since.
“And you’ve been healthy since.”
Um — what?
Mentally healthy. I mean that as a compliment and a slight dig at people like myself.